Printable Version
Border Security: How Do We Keep Out Criminals?
By Martha MacCallum, Fox News
March 30, 2006
Transcript
Martha: That was President Bush earlier today speaking in Cancun where he met with his counterparts from Mexico and Canada. Among the issues that they were discussing was of course, border security and how the three countries can work together to keep criminals out. Joining me now to talk about it is retired U.S. Army General, Major General Bob Scales, he’s a Fox News military analyst. Tim Roemer is with us as well, former 9/11 Commission member and former democratic congressman from Indiana, and Linda Robinson joins us, she is that author of the book, Masters of Chaos. She is a senior writer for U.S. News and World Report and she’s done a lot of work on the specials forces that work for our military, so welcome to all of you.
All: Thank you Martha.
Martha: General Scales let me start with you if I may. The president making some pretty strong comments about the kinds of folks we do not want to see continuing to cross on our borders and the debate is really heating up. I asked people for e-mail responses about the idea of a fence. I just want to read one of them to you as we get started. Tom Wright, from Los Angeles, California says, “Martha I want a real wall. I could stomach guest worker and amnesty if we had a real wall.” I think that sums up the way a lot of people seem to feel. What do you think about all of this?
General Scales: I’m not in favor of a wall that goes from California to the east coast of Texas. I just think that’s overkill. I think the technology is good enough that we can build something like an electronic or virtual wall and you thicken the border patrol and put enough people on the border to stem most of the illegal immigration. The idea here Martha, is not to simply shut down immigration, the key element here is to moderate it, such that our services in the United States don’t get overwhelmed and that immigrants that come into the country can be assimilated. It’s not – the whole object is not to create a new version of the Berlin wall or the Israeli wall that separates the Israelis from the Palestinians. I think that’s just extreme.
Martha: Tim Roemer we’re going to get a shot in a minute here but we’ve been looking at one of our monitors at another protest going on in San Diego. It looks like hundreds if not thousands of people – uh this is the tape we’re looking at right here, the march in the street – and I really want to talk to you about the security side of this story, but I have a quick question for you. We’re watching all of these Mexican flags pouring down the street. There is a lot of divided feeling in the country, a lot of angry feeling about the fact that people are carrying Mexican flags in protest in this country. What do you think about that?
Tim Roemer: Well I think Martha that first of all, they probably would be a little more effective in getting their message across if people that are on this side of the border with some legitimate concerns about family members had American flags. I think that that would help their message and help their effectiveness. I also think that what the General just said about the border is absolutely – we have to frame this in terms of, we need post-911 solutions and thinking in post-911 terms, not pre-9/11 terms. A wall is not nearly as effective for our national security and law enforcement and enforcing our borders than more security guards, better technology, more sharing of law enforcement and having the Mexican government doing their share on their side of the border. Law enforcement and national security, and we saw al-Qaeda manipulate this, I think is key, and Americans are right to be concerned about it.
Martha: Let me get Linda Robinson into the mix here. Linda, from a security perspective how do you rank your concerns about people who are crossing over the border from Mexico into this country primarily, in terms of priorities for us?
Linda Robinson: Right, well there have been a number of officials that have signaled this concern, that what they call you know, the soft underbelly, that people can come in through this border, and I think what is very important is that you keep out those people deemed to be security threats while regulating the economic migrants which this country’s economy needs. And I covered Mexico for many years actually, and I just think in this case you have to accept the fact that geography is destiny.
Martha: Let’s take a quick look at a quote that I pulled up from Teddy Roosevelt, which is worth taking a look at in the context of this conversation, “…He –” and he’s talking about immigrants, “shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But his is predicated up the man’s becoming in every fact an American, and nothing but an American… There can be no divided allegiance here.” General, I’m curious about your response to that famous quote from Teddy Roosevelt. Do you this that as a country we have lost sight of the importance of immigrants who come here, illegal or not, and assimilating into society?
General Scales: Well first of all Martha, I think they do assimilate into society. The problem is the rate of arrival. It’s not the fact that folks that who come from other countries, particularly from Mexico don’t eventually, either they or their children pick up our culture, pick up our language, pick up our values and become 100% solid citizens in our country. The problem is this huge flood of immigration if overwhelming our educational establishments, and our public services, an it’s moving so fast, it’s very difficult to go through this really measured and deliberate assimilation process that previous generations of immigrants have gone through.
Martha: All right I’m going to ask all three of you stay put for just a minute we’re going to take a quick break as we watch some of these pictures of this protest in San Diego. We will be right back with this question rising from a bodyguard of Osama bin Laden, in a very important, controversial interview and statement, saying he believes that Osama bin Laden will attack again here at home. And we’ll be right back with that story.
(BREAK)
Martha: Here is the crowd in San Diego and we just wanted to show you some of these pictures because it is growing in size by the moment it seems. Lots of Mexican flags in the crowd in this immigration protest scene going on in a suburb today of San Diego, California, as we watch this kind of thing continuing day after day, as this border security debate rages all across the country. That scene in San Diego this afternoon. Okay, rejoining us now, Major General Bob Scales, Tim Roemer, former Indiana congressman and Linda Robinson, senior writer for U.S. News and World Report. They’re here now to talk about a horrifying prediction from Osama bin Laden’s former bodyguard. He told CBS News that his former boss, is not done with the U.S. yet, saying that he’s positive that UBL is plotting another attack on America. So Linda, let me start with you if I may. It seems that, you know he’s talking about the most recent video that we saw from Osama bin Laden where he talks about attacks on the United States, and the bodyguard who seems to have spent quite a bit of time with him over the years, says that he doesn’t make idle threats. What do you think about this?
Linda Robinson: Yes, well I think it’s certainly safe to assume al Qaeda is planning attacks on the U.S. I think that much must be said, but on the other hand this guy is in Yemen. I don’t think he is necessarily in direct contact with bin Laden, so I’m not sure if he has the exact details. He also is of course being watched. We do also have the concern, he said that he believes that bin Laden is over in Afghanistan, where in fast a lot of these people crossing back and forth between Afghanistan and Pakistan, and I think could even be trying to take the pressure off of Pakistan by making such a statement.
Martha: You know one of the – yeah that was interesting, and I want to get General Scales thoughts on that, he said, no, no he’s in Afghanistan not in Pakistan. He said the tribes along that border he believed would turn him in for money.
General Scales: Well I mean that whole border area is transparent. There is no real border, it essentially was Iristan and the tribes occupy both sides of the borders and the terrorists move back and forth freely between Pakistan and Afghanistan, so it’s a bit disingenuous to say what particular country he’s in. And I agree that this could very well be disinformation effort on the part of this guy. No one knows where Osama bin Laden and it almost doesn’t matter. But I think this gentleman is absolutely right when he says that Osama bin Laden wants to strike again. That has been a theme that he has not deviated from one bit since 9/11.
Martha: Tim Roemer, I don’t think anybody doubts that that’s what he wants to do, but the question is and we hope the outcome is different, whether he is able to pull something off, and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed said after the September 11th attacks and after he was taken into custody that he believed that it had become more difficult to attack the United States. How do you think we stand now?
Tim Roemer: Well I think as we’ve learned in the Moussaoui trial that the terrorists, and Khalid-Sheikh Mohammed said let’s keep it simple and let’s be agile and dynamic, and unfortunately I think Martha, the United States too often times has created these big bureaucracies like the Department of Homeland Security, the FBI still doesn’t have a virtual case file system to communicate in the 21st Century. We’re not going in the right direction even though it has not been a mistake for al-Qaeda to successfully attack us yet. Look, Osama bin Laden said that he was going to attack the United States in 1993, he did it, and he attacked us with a van. He waited seven years, attacked us with planes, I think he is determined to do it again, and hopefully the American people will get their government back engaged and get us passing the reforms needed so we can be better prepared against al-Qaeda in the future.
Martha: I just have one minute left, and I want to ask each one of you what you think our biggest vulnerability is, if as Congressman Roemer says we’re not as prepared as we should be. Linda Robinson, what is the number one thing that you would like to see this country do to be better prepared and safer?
Linda Robinson: Well, I actually think we not only have to be watching for attacks on the homeland but we really have to be watching out there around the world, even Afghanistan could become destabilized and other countries, we need to keep our view global.
Martha: General Scales?
General Scales: I think this is an away game Martha. The surest way to disrupt the – any attempt on the United States is to take the fight to the enemy, to engage him on his own turf, to make sure he’s constantly moving and unable to set himself to do the planning necessary to carry out this kind of attack.
Martha: Alright they’re telling me I’m out of time, but ten seconds, Tim Roemer, our biggest vulnerability?
Tim Roemer: Well, our biggest vulnerability is probably our ports and our borders, Martha, its trying to make sure that we have a strategic plan to protect us and to make sure a weapon of mass destruction does not sneak into our city, either a dirty bomb, or some chemical or biological threat there. I think that is a real, real concern today.
Martha: Alright, great conversation folks. Thanks so much, General Scales, Tim Roemer, Linda Robinson, very good to talk to all of you have a good weekend.
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